i understand theres not a whole lot of heavyweight kunf fu type jokers in the first few ufc i think there was i "ninja" guy who got beat up (and i doubt his creds) and u do see people with kempo or judo backgrounds but were's the crazy monkey style wu shu bs no tea kwan do , aikedo, escrima, im not saying i want to see some jakie chan guy out there thats nosense. i know some of these arts (aikido, escrima/kali) are pretty usfull but becuse of the mma surge i catch myself wondering how these real fancy kung fu styles would fare agianst the mostly mu thai / jujitsu systems that seem to dominate|||Wow, there are some damn uninformed answerers on here...
First off, there was Kung Fu guys in the early UFCs (Jason Delucia who fought Royce in a No Rules match about a year prior to the UFC, Keith Hackney who did Kenpo and Kung Fu hybrid).
Despite what some people think (or theorize) the reason you don't see a lot of the more ecclectic styles is that they aren't fighters period. Forget philosophy, forget being "too deadly" these people have no practical knowledge in the application of their technique. Wushu is an acrobatic style (really Wushu is any Kung Fu) but the styles you list.
Well Kali/Escrima are great, however mostly rely on stick work. No weapons in the UFC, so pretty much negates 80 percent of their art. (Even empty hand techniques translate into stick work).
Aikido: Generally worthless, it looks great on paper and during choreography but relies heavily on cooperation. Uke and Tori have to be in synch for many of the techniques to work. It is also based off of use with a sword. Nobody goes for wrists and lapels in a MMA match (or on the street) and if you can't throw someone who is actively trying to resist being thrown, then you can't really throw someone can you?
Fancy Kung Fu styles: There are some that actually spar, and actually do work. San Shou definately being one that can translate well. Cung Le is crossing over. But without actual fighting, a technique is worthless in the ring OR IN THE STREET.
"I could easily take out a fighter with no rules" Ummm no you can't. Unless you take on MMA fighters under that ruleset constantly and can knowingly defend yourself against them, all you are doing is heresay.
I studied Krav Maga in Israel at Wingate, and here in the States under Levine. I can say in all certainity that 90 percent of the "Krav Maga" being taught stateside is worthless. Unless it is fought and drilled at a high rate of speed, with heavy protective gear and sparred hard and intense, it isn't real Krav Maga. Despite all the throat punching, or eye gouging, REAL Krav takes into account knowing that you will more than likely miss those areas, but that you are generally going for them. REAL Krav looks an awful lot like MMA when you see it, and it is sparred an awful lot like MMA when it comes to the unnarmed portion. It excells in learning true instinctive motions and intensity. Walking through combinations, or multi step things with a cooperative partner is not Krav. Real Krav is fought, and fought very hard. I have been to at least a dozen schools in the US and have only found one that trained the way they train in Israel.
(btw, there are plenty of former MMA fighters that teach Krav, and train in Krav, and current Kravist who also do MMA, just in case you didn't know)
Machowolf: Read up and do some research son. There is no Aikido in MMA, but there is plenty of Judo. (Also Judo is a grappling only Martial Art, no kicks. Most of the takedowns you see in MMA are Judo or wrestling derived.)
KEMPO: There are precious few TRUE kempo fighters in the UFC, most of them are kickboxers with a Kempo base who also have something else behind them. Just because Chuck Liddell has a Kempo tattoo doesn't mean that what he does in the ring is Kempo.
Monk: Look up "John Marsh vs. Kung Fu guy" on youtube no holds barred challenge match, guy gets his arm broke attempting to eye gouge. You can also look up pretty much any MMA vs. and get an idea how this works.
In case you are new to the internet, cash challenges have been made by Kung Fu masters, subsequently MMA fighters have been paid. Also the Gracies have put their art for an open challenge with No Rules for years. Kung Fuist Jason Delucia went down there and got tooled a year or so before the first UFC.
Agnostic Front: Man, you just can't get right. Pressure point strikes DO NOT WORK. Why? Simple, they go by pain tolerance (many people have various thresholds of this) they also are different on every. Same point is in a slightly different spot on a different person. Precise striking against a dummy does not prepare you for precise striking against a fully resisting moving opponent. People have a hard enough time just getting a clean shot in on someone's head or face area, what makes you think hitting the spot the size of a dime on a person who is resisting you is going to work? It is next to impossible a, and b it just does not gain results.
Also neck strikes and groin strikes were allowed in early UFCs (some used, some not) generally it mattered very little in most matches. Groin shots aren't the fight ender people think they are, and will not stop a determined person under adrenaline, or someone who is trained. Throat strikes are the same vein as pressure points, hard to land. People have a natural resistance to protecting their neck.
Also see my above reference about Krav Maga. Contrary to popular belief there are very few "kill" moves or "deadly: moves in Krav. It is meant as a means to move quickly, most of the kill shots are using weapons. They don't see a throat strike as a fight ender, they see it as a distraction to set up taking the person down and curb stomping them.
bagua: Until you take out other fighters in 1-3 blows on a repeated basis, you are not training. In order to actually be good at fighting there are no shortcuts, you simply fight (under a safe rule set or with protection) and you learn what is effective for you, and what isn't. Removing the rules and protective gear does not hinder you, it makes you more deadly.
Why are some of you so dead set on this completely ineffective ideal. It is illogical.
Removing rules only makes the person who is successful under those rules more deadly.
As you don't actively train these techniques against a live resisting person you have no PRACTICAL application of these techniques. Your most effective techniques or only effective in your own THEORY, not in practice. Because you haven't applied throat strikes, eye gouges, vein pulls or skin rips against an actual live person. Your knowledge of these techniques are no better than anyone elses.
If a guy would beat your @ss under a rule set, then he would stomp you without them. In fact he would be in a far better position to apply those "illegal" strikes than you would be, as he is versed in how to strike, already has accuracy and timing against a resisting opponent under adrenaline, and can put you in a position where they can employ such tactics at their will.
How can you justify thinking you can handle someone who can do everything but eye gouging, throat punching,groin shotting, biting and fishooking, and thinking that with the inclusion of these few techniques that you will beat him.
He knows those techniques too. You don't hold a patented knowledge of how to poke an eye or kick to the balls. They however already have the accuracy to kick you squarely in the balls, with extreme power. (As they land other kicks to accurately against a resisting opponent) they also know how to defend it (since they defend big targets all the time.)
Think of it like this...
Professional Golf has a ton of regulations that limit the tool set of a golfer. It has a limit on how many clubs you can carry, what balls you can use, what type of club you can use.
Under this argument, if you take away those rules. Which allows you to play with an oversized club head, a more forgiving ball, more clubs, that you essentially could beat a Professional Golfer at golf. (Never mind the fact that he could use those same tools to a greater effectiveness than you)
How bout this?
NASCAR has strict regulations on their cars, the type of tracks they run on etc.
Under your arguments, if removing the rules and racing on a street, you could effectively out race a Nascar driver. (Also keeping in mind he can modify the car any way in his choosing as well)
Hell insert any kind of sport in there..
Let's say putting a street baller (who still competes and works his game, which is something a "too deadly to spar guy doesn't) plays a pick up game against a NBA All Star, with no rules, does the street baller win?
Despite these being sports the ideas are still the same. A professional fighter fights. It is what he does, and he does it well, it is all he does. He is a professional for a reason, he displays a high level of skill. Now you think that by removing some of the rules which limit him as well as you, that you can stand a chance against him?
Average pro trains about 30 to 50 hours a week. (including cardio and conditioning) you train your art, what 4, maybe 6 hours a week? A pro is fighting, constantly as part of his training. Going against other highly trained fighters.
You don't spar the techniques you intend to use, in fact you have never used them against a person at full speed, chances are your instructor has never used them against a person at full speed.
How does this math end up with you winning? I just don't get it, it is the most illogical argument in the world.
Anyway, sorry for the book.
You don't see Martial Arts that are not effective in the MMA, because they are not effective. Without sparring, training actively against fully resisting opponents, and being able to have timing, accuracy, speed, and intensity behind your techniques, they are in effective. If you can't spar it often, intense, and hard, you will not be able to use it effectively when it matters period. You have no practical applicable knowledge of the technique, only a theory.
"Hundreds" or "Thousands" of years old stuff doesn't mean a thing. It was taught differently back then against a different form of combat. The world evolves, hundreds of years ago they believed leaches sucked the bad blood out, or that spirits need to be exercised. Fighting styles designed for armor and swords, or that were once fought do you no good now a days. Nothing works without actually applying it.
Too many people want to think of their art as some shortcut, that some cheap trick technique will win them the outcome of a fight. News flash, everyone will go for balls, eyes, and throats when they feel threatened. Since there aren't a ton of people in the emergency room with their throats chopped, or eyes poked out, I have a tendency to not believe heavily in the effectiveness of these techniques.
You do however see plenty of stabbings, and shootings. Some broken noses, concussions, etc.
Well that is enough of a rant, hopefully some people got the point. Others will forever be stuck in a mindset because they have a vested interest in believing what they have been doing isn't a waste of time. Since they don't want to invest in the blood, sweat, and pain that comes with actually fighting to be better at it, they will continue to believe that their work on a dummy, or a cooperative opponent will translate into an adrenaline based situation in which the attacker seriously wishes you harm.|||Maybe they just don't see a point to it as a lot of other stylists also feel .They feel that martial arts should only be used when a definite threat to life is present everything else is just egotistical posing .
Right or wrong that is their view.One thing I do know for sure is that those fancy precise finesse techniques dont work in any kind of fight approaching reality.Gross motor skills work best throwing locking sweeping punching kicking.|||Most of the systems that you listed, do not lend themselves well to the constraints and rules of the ring. They are better suited of course for a life or death fight. In the MMA you are not allowed to cause permanent damage to the other fighter. In a real fight you cannot afford to not cause extreme damage. I study Ba-gua, in this system I do not want any fight to last more than 1 to 3 blows, on the street, NO MMA fighter would stand a chance with me as I would not give them a chance to grapple. In the ring I would have a very hard time because my most effective techniques are illegal. In short to stop a grappler/wrestler fast you have to use moves that are not allowed and many systems are not designed for PROLONGED combat|||The biggest misconseption about UFC is that it's real fighting. Kung Fu's principles teach striking in pressure points, which is illegal in UFC. Neck strikes and groin strikes... also illegal in the UFC. A master at say... wing chun, wouldn't do well in the UFC because they're not allow to perform half the art. Another example is that of Krav Maga. You'll never see that in UFC as most of the strikes and methods practiced are fatal or otherwise not being nice to the opponent. That doesn't make it a bad art, or useless. But it's less likely to be practiced by people who aren't intending to be in life or death hand to hand situations such as war.|||To be effective you need to train the sport. MMA is a sport or combat sport.
You would not train bjj or karate for a boxing match, you would train soccer for basketball even thought they have similar moves (dribbling, shooting, passing, blocking, jamming, etc.). You do not need to wonder what if, there are fights between various artists and styles. Go to a school, make friends and spar. That used to be a grand tradition of fights between masters. That was outlawed. UFC was a unique way to bring that back with rules (don't want dead folks or permanently damaged, that would suck). Then again there are many competitions in Japan and China.
If you want to be effective you have to spar, practice those moves, regardless of the art.
FYI, there have been folks from Karate, TKD, etc, but they trained other stuff too.
There is a good show, Human Weapon that reviews different styles.
PS. Chin na, this is a grappling art, there are several grappling arts in China as well. Shaio chiao (sorry spelling is probably wrong) is a grappling art like Judo/jiujitsu. I've met some bad men that studied that and have used it in street fights (winning). Hard to say if it is the artist or the art. JJ begot Judo which goes to BJJ which is used in UFC (the Japanese connection).
Best of luck to all.|||Wow - anyone who actually made it to my answer after reading the novel by JUDOMOFO must have tired eyes so I will be quick like I am sure he is in the sack:
You don't see these smaller asian guys in UFC because the UFC doesn't have an 80 lb weight class.....
LOL - sorry it is funny though - see you are smiling - have a great day!!|||I think the problem is that with Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Ninjitsu, and Kung Fu...they tend to rely on a lot more kicks..and flips and sweeps. they don't tend to be close nit when it comes to that fighting style...as most asian martial arts are meant to keep someone from getting to close to begin with.
this is why brazilian jujitsu, Aikido and kempo karate tend to work better for MMA fighters...because of their close knit contact aspects. You are trained to be up close more with thoose styles of fighting.....and it allows the fighter to add elements of boxing, kick boxing, olympic wrestling, free style wrestling and pro wrestling into the fight as well.
Most martial arts teach you to get your opponent as far away as possible...be defensive through offensive manuevers.....but ones that fight in close more....tend to be all out offensive, which is why they work more on submissions and pressure points...which helps bring in the MMA style to work so well.|||Once again, if it doesn't work in MMA, it doesn't work in real life.The only exceptions to this are weapons. Flashy-*** kung fu, wushu, shu wu, aikido, hapkido, and anything else from China or feudal Japan will not work. But seriously, 95% of the martial arts ever invented would not work in a street fight. Kyokushin, some styles of karate, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Sambo, wrestling, kickboxing, boxing, Sanshou, Muay Thai, maybe TKD, and HK (street) Wing Chun are the only arts that work in real life.
That's why you ever see the kung fu guys, not just Asians, in MMA: because they know they'll get owned and KTFO.
And to Machowolf: No one has ever used Aikido, Hapkido, chin na, or pressure points succcessfully in MMA.|||A lot of Asians could make the 155 lb. division, but kung fu just wouldn't work as well as what almost all fighters are using. The nonsense about it being too deadly or not in the kung fu "code" is just silly. The time commitment in learning all the different phases (boxing, kicking, wrestling, submissions) is too time consuming for someone who depends on fighting (say a kickboxer in Thailand) for their living.|||in response to judomofo, I would just like to say the argument that removing the rules would hinder an MMA fighter against a master who has trained in "illegal" moves is NOT an illogical one. A person who has trained extensively in MMA with rules would NOT have trained in the illegal moves such as throat strikes (which can be very deadly), small joint manipulation (which is illegal according to UFC's website), spine/kidney/pressure point shots, head butting, pointed elbow strikes, etc. Most importantly, they train against people who are also using the rules, so they are not trained against people using "illegal" moves and would therefore be caught unaware by such attacks. (for instance Renzo Gracie was not ready to defend against the attacks that disqualified Frank Shamrock on Elite XC).
It seems that logically, a person who HAS trained with those kinds of moves would fair much better doing them and defending against them. The question is an argument of style, not of athlete. The UFC fighters are most definitely superior athletes to the run of the mill martial artist. The point remains valid though.
Take a look at fighters who train for tournaments that don't have those rules. They do have these kinds of competitions in China/Japan and I don't believe that a UFC fighter would win a fight with one of these fighters on the street.
Rules don't just hinder the fighter during the fight, they hinder the fighters training before it. Fighting is very reflexive and your training will cause you to act a certain way when you get into a situation that you need it...thus the point of training.
MMA fighters train in a way that they will not be disqualified and they train to fight and defend against other fighters who do the same. They are not prepared for things that would not be used against them in the ring, like the things mentioned above, or a chair/broken bottle/knife/pipe/chain/etc that happens to be laying there when the fight gets increasingly heated and desperate.
Yes, pressure points/eyes/throats are hard to hit, but not as much so when the person is on the ground and not as maneuverable. Also, things that are hard to do are made much easier with practice, and there are people out there who do practice using and defending against them.
They are the superior fighters, but they would not be so in MMA, since they would lose too many matches due to disqualification if they fought based on their training. Besides, most masters have nothing to prove and while many of them will not refuse a challenge, they will not actively give them.
Well, now I have written a book, but he did it first. lol. Peace out guys, hopefully this helps.|||Judomofo has too much time on his hands. Damn dude write a book next time.
Kungfu doesn't help when somebody is pounding your face in on the ground. It doesn't do much good when somebody slams you on your head either.|||Judomofo, that is the BEST answer I have ever seen on this site bar none!! If that doesn't sway the thoughts of the dellusional martial artists on this site, nothing will. You managed to sum up every good argument that I was unable to articulate in my previous posts. Thank you, you have done a great service to this site.
Read his post children, it is long but there is a mountain of truth to his words.|||I've seen some (very few) Kung Fu guys do well, just in the lighter divisions, which don't get as much publicity. The fact is, as wrestlers come more into it, there will be fewer and fewer asian martial artists in it, because the collegiate wrestling training system is superior, even if the style itself is not. Better training equals better competitor. The top MMA guys train at only a small handful of dojo, or are ex-collegiate wrestlers. These dojos are the best for MMA training in the country, and have very strenuous regiments.|||I am a ta kwon do guy and I have to admit its pretty useless agianst a ground fighter of the same calaber. Ground fighting is more practical, fights never stay standing because you stand a good chance of getting knocked out..|||Kung-fu and T'ai Chi are not philosphically compatible with the MMA. The only way they will ever fight anyone from the MMA is if the MMA type attacks them on the street! Then it should be real interesting when there are no rules and no one to stop the fight.
Machowolf - You would be wise to look up the words "chin na" in relation to Kung-fu and T'ai Chi.
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